God: Nonexistant...?

Hello all.

Now before those of you who think 'God' is real, actually read this:

God: Real Or Not?

Arguments FOR:
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Arguments AGAINST:
1. Endless suffering in the world which, by his 'infinite power', could be instantly fixed.

2. God hasn't proven his own existence to save his 'children' {that is, humans} from sin and hell.

3. Just read the bible. Seriously, it reads like it was written by a dying giraffe with bad Asperger's.

Discuss.

I must agree fully. Not to insult anyone or anything. But I agree.

*hopes not to be shot in the face or something*

If you want to see the strongest proof that god is NOT real, watch 'Welcome To North Korea' on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ6E3cShcVU

It's about an hour long.

Iiiii... ... I feel like I'm mini-modding here but. :/ Hey man, was this thread really necessary? There are some people who really believe in God and there's nothing wrong with that, just like there's nothing wrong with believing there isn't a God. I don't think insults, written or insinuated, are appropriate. 'Specially since this seems to be out of the blue. :/ But hey if I'm overstepping my boundaries just ignore me. Or... something.

I think you misunderstand...

I genuinely want a discussion. A proper, level-headed, intelligent debate. I welcome any one who wants to try and prove god, or at least give SOMETHING to support the theory that s/he exists at all.


You over-stepped no boundaries.

I'm willing to debate it with you. I don't have a lot of knowledge on the issue, but I have a lot of faith. I'll answer anything you want. Should I start with your first three points? :3

1.) God gave humans free will. With that free will, we make each other suffer. If He took away all suffering, he would also have to take away free will.

2.) He did step in to save us all from sin/Hell. That's why Jesus came to Earth. Now, we are back to the free will issue. We have the choice to repent and save ourselves. If we want forgiveness and everlasting happiness, all we have to do is ask.

3.) I'm not going to answer this until you make more that a broad statement. I'm willing to argue specific things, but this is too much. Also, as an Admin, I'm going to ask you to refrain from making discriminatory remarks against those with disabilities such as Asperger's.

I... but. I'm personally not interested whether or not there is a God -- personally I don't think it can be proven, so I think it's kind of pointless to rile up a debate about it because toes almost inevitably get stepped on -- but... well. I think it's easy to see where I misunderstood, because -- here, lemme quote.

Quote :

3. Just read the bible. Seriously, it reads like it was written by a dying giraffe with bad Asperger's.

... What? Sorry if I get kind of offended here. xD My brother has Asperger's and I have a very good friend who has it as well, and. For one thing, that kind of insinuates that people with AS are stupid or something and that's just :| sorry if this is rubbing me the wrong way. All in all, that statement is just offensive on several levels, for both believers of the Bible and people with AS. :/

But yeah. You say something like that, which is a blatant insult, and you expect people to know that you're wanting an intelligent debate? My bad.

... okay, now that that's out of the way. You want a debate? A'ight. I can't promise anything because I don't know a lot about the Bible and I'm not a fan of Christianity, but I am taking a religion class, and I'm learning.

I have no idea where you got the idea that the Bible was badly written. o_O; Because of this class, I've actually opened the Bible to seriously read it for the first time and I'm actually enjoying myself. It can be hard to understand because it's out of context of its time period and there are cultural differences and such, but once you take that into consideration and learn about the history and culture it's actually pretty fascinating.

As for your first two points -- Yeah, but if some God swooped in to save you every time something went wrong, how would you learn to deal with life? I'm sure you're referring to things like natural disasters and stuff like the North Korea situation and the Holocaust, but. It's my personal belief that God, if there is one, can't interfere. *shrug* But, yeah.

I'm sorry about the Asperger's thing. I have a habit of using descriptions like that to make an exaggerated point

anyways,

I willing to accept there was a man named Jesus, we know this was a real name, who was a carpenter and spread word of good deeds and all that. But that in no way proves that God sent him. He could have just been a very nice or very delusional guy. Back then people were extremely religious, more than they are today, and given that someone had to be crazy somewhere he could have just thought himself to be a prophet as many (heavily medicated) people do today. That, or his stories were exaggerated, as they likely were, and by word of mouth people believed him to be a prophet.

God proving his existence and saying to people: "Hey guys, G-man here. Yeah. all that stuff about sinning? Totally real, dudes. Totally. So you might not want to go to hell... Ergo, don't sin. We cool? Alright, see you guys in another thousand years, I'm gonna go sleep." would not take away free will, it would remove the want to commit crime for fear of hell, which leads me to my next paragraph:

Hell.
Obviously created to scare people into religion although I'm sure those missionaries did a fine job of that. (Y'know, the ones that killed women, men and children for not converting. They traveled the globe 'n' stuff. Then they invented slavery.) If God was so caring and forgiving, why would he condemn a person to burn in lakes of fire for the rest of forever and beyond because they committed a sin or sorts. Apparently just looking at other women with a wandering mind can get you locked away in that place according to christian websites in regards to thou shalt not commit adultery.

Again,
Why would God allow people in places like Africa to starve and be without water? If he can flood the planet surely he can create a lake or something.
And why would God allow North Korea to happen?
Why would God allow such things to happen to those he 'loves' so much?

Edit time:

I don't want God to 'swoop' in every time things bugger up, I want God to swoop in every time millions of people starve to death because their land cannot support them.

Something I don't understand . . .

Why wouldn't God, or a god in general, just pop on down or something and say hi? Just to remove all doubt?

I mean, I know there's the whole "you must have faith" thing, and free will and all, but it just seems like it would be so much simpler. Why not, really? Irrefutable proof would remove the argument once and for all, and then we can all live happy.

Maybe it's a little weird of me to register just to post here, but I had to. Malathyne showed me this and I can't resist spiritual topics.

Here's my biggest issue:

You are speaking solely about a monotheistic, Bible-based God. The God of the Jews and the Christians and the Muslims. And you're using that point, and that alone, to prove that God Does Not Exist. Here's my question: are you talking solely of the Judeo-Christian God, or of all gods?

It's unfair to use one religion's faults to judge all others. You want an intelligent debate, start with your own arguments.

You assumed I meant Yahweh?

I mean every god.

I mean every single one.

Which ever one's real if any.

Don't assume anything.

Honestly...

I... But the only evidence you're giving is related to Yahweh? lol, if you're talking about all the gods then why not give us some examples that debunk them, too?

Not all gods are purely of creation, though. :O What about the gods of nature and stuff? They can be debunked with science and whatnot, sure, but your arguments don't really carry over to them.

Re: Syl and faith

I completely see where you're comin' from, 'cause I've thought that for a long time, too. But I kind of see the other side now, too. There's a difference between having faith and knowing something. I... It's hard to explain, but if God came down and was like I'S REAL, DO WAT I SAY, wouldn't people do stuff just because they had to, not because they really believe that people should do good with others? Of course, that same argument can be used against religion, saying that there's this great father/mother/whathaveyou figure looming over you with consequences so you HAVE to do good things if you want to go to heaven, so people aren't doing good because they want to... but yeah.

Wow, that didn't make any sense at all. =w=;

Psycho wrote:

Don't assume anything.

Alright.

I'll re-read.

Here's some highlights:

Quote :

I willing to accept there was a man named Jesus, we know this was a real name, who was a carpenter and spread word of good deeds and all that. But that in no way proves that God sent him. He could have just been a very nice or very delusional guy. Back then people were extremely religious, more than they are today, and given that someone had to be crazy somewhere he could have just thought himself to be a prophet as many (heavily medicated) people do today. That, or his stories were exaggerated, as they likely were, and by word of mouth people believed him to be a prophet.

Quote :

Hell.
Obviously created to scare people into religion although I'm sure those missionaries did a fine job of that. (Y'know, the ones that killed women, men and children for not converting. They traveled the globe 'n' stuff. Then they invented slavery.) If God was so caring and forgiving, why would he condemn a person to burn in lakes of fire for the rest of forever and beyond because they committed a sin or sorts. Apparently just looking at other women with a wandering mind can get you locked away in that place according to christian websites in regards to thou shalt not commit adultery.

Quote :

3. Just read the bible. Seriously, it reads like it was written by a dying giraffe with bad Asperger's.

Quote :

Why would God allow such things to happen to those he 'loves' so much?

So apparently:

God is a "he", "loves" us, has to do with Jesus, has missionaries, won't prove he exists even though that would get us to stop sinning, which of course means sin exists, and there is a place called Hell.

Awfully specific for

Quote :

I mean every god.

I mean every single one.

No, that makes sense, I see what you're saying Maka. But that leads me on another point.

A number of religious people (not all, mind you) seem to think that if you don't have at least one deity, you don't have morals. That confuses me greatly. I am a major atheist and I still know that it's wrong to kill, steal, hurt other people, and everything else. I wouldn't want that done to me and my society has taught me that it's wrong, and so I don't do it to others. However, these people seem to think that the only way to have morals is to have a deity. This leads to them sounding like they only do good things because they're afraid of a spanking from a sky-daddy and being sent to Hell. I know that's not the case with all of them, but why do they insist on making it sound like that? It isn't proof of existence at all.

First I have to say, I'm only knowledgeable in Christianity. I can't argue about any other god or gods because I admittedly know nothing about them. Now then. . .

I hate to use this excuse, but there's not much else to do. "God works in mysterious ways." Horrible as an argument, I know. It's hard to know what the cause for something could be. In a few hundred years or so, maybe the starving people will have motivated something really great for humanity. Seriously, nobody will know until it happens.

It's possible that God doesn't come down because he wants people to doubt. What's the point of rewarding someone for believing what is obvious? It's easy to believe something you've seen with your own eyes. John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

And personally, I do not take the Bible at face value. For one thing, we have to remember that it was written by humans, and then translated multiple times by humans. These humans could have easily put their own ideas in or mistranslated things. I am taking the same Bible class that Mala is, and I have to say that there are many stories that cannot be proven, and are even unlikely. Especially in the Old Testament. An example is the flood story. It is likely that it was just written to show God's might and to contrast him with the Mesopotamian gods who were so popular in the day. I do however, believe that most of the stories in the Bible give us good moral standings. Especially in the New Testament. That way we can throw out icky verses like those that say we should stone people. Because I believe those were more human rules that divine rules.

I also have to ask what your take on the beginning of the world is. That's a favorite topic of mine. Although I do know that evolution happens, but there are some things that just seem to big for coincidence. For example, the way that bees work with flowers to pollinate them. Since flowers don't have thinking minds, I find it unlikely that they just knew to grow attractive to certain insects that just so happen are able to help them populate. :/

I hope I didn't miss anything you said. It's a lot to put in one post.

lol spanking sky-daddy

Well... People do stuff like that 'cause. They honestly believe it, I suppose. :/ Which is a shame, because you're right, it's perfectly possible to know right from wrong without a deity (I'm an example of this, too). I can't really help you about why people are bone-headed except to say that there are people who are just like that. "I am right and therefore everyone else is wrong." It's kind of an unfortunate way of looking at things, I think. There's so many wonderful, interesting concepts in the world. Why decide that they're all wrong and therefore evil? :c

On that note, I would also like to point out that some of the nicest people I've ever met are religious. My great-aunt attends a fire-and-brimstone church but she's so nice. She honestly believes in the love of God and has an innate love for people, and automatically looks for the good in them. Granted, she gave me a bit of a speech when I told her that I'm bisexual, but it's because she was concerned for my future in the afterlife, not because She's Right And I'm Wrong. I actually felt touched that she felt the need to lecture me, especially since she said she's worked with a lesbian woman and they're very good friends and she hasn't told that friend off.

ETA: What is with me and nabbing the top of second pages?

Dultae, stop trying to be a smart ass.

I use 'he' because I could use any gender and it's one letter shorter than 'she'.

Almost all religions, based around gods, follow the same cookie-cutter template:

Listen to this guy/guys/girl/girls and do as they say, or guess what! You go this horrible place. For ever.

Several Religions had missionaries that slaughtered those who wouldn't listen to them, and I put love obviously to be sarcastic. It isn't my fault you don't understand that, re-read it.
Even more have a Jesus-Archetype as well.

A lot of religions, in my view, can be put down to the really old civilisations back before houses were made out of sticks, seeing extreme changes in the weather and thinking it to be a conscious thing, thus, in an attempt to appease it and make it smile upon them, they tried often killed things for it like animals and what not -- moving on a little further in time, they decided that saying people should be scared of a cloud, sounded silly, so they personified it. Maybe even several times over. Blah, blah, blah, here we are today.

Btw, I'll bet you didn't know Satanism has ties with Egyptian religions.

On a further note.. edit time:

Saying that some people think you need a deity to be moral is funny, because some of them need a deity to be IMmoral. You know, the ones that blame things on Satan or think that they can do what they want if they just ask their chosen man-in-the-sky for a bit of forgiveness.
Another thing:
I've never understood what the religious people don't like about sexualities that aren't straight. What's wrong with liking every flavour of ice cream. So to speak.

Okay, I must point something out before it gets too far. On the evolution bit, there is a bit of common misconception. A lot of evolution, if not most of it, had to do with random genetic mutations--not planned. The mutations survived when they were beneficial and could be passed on well in offspring. So flowers had various mutations as they evolved that, as bees evolved too, allowed them to work well together in a given environment should the mutations stay. Just had to point that out.

Anyway, some religious people can be quite nice. I'm not saying all are bad, and I have had some good religious friends. Granted, it gets a little old when one or two of them make the righteous attempt to convert me, but the ones that don't I get along with just fine. Silly other people who need a deity to be moral and all . . .

You can be the most devout christian in the world and still believe in evolution. It would make MORE sense to be that way actually, at least then if God exists, his making the world is less far fetched... Just say he invented the big bang and evolution. Done.

Psycho wrote:

Btw, I'll bet you didn't know Satanism has ties with Egyptian religions.

Er... what Satanism are we talking here?

Obviously not LaVeyan because that's an ATHEISTICAL branch of Satanism.


Obviously.

Yeah, no. That was a stupid question on my part. I actually knew that, my mind has just shut down. --_--
Which is why I believe in evolution rather than a literal translation of the Creation story. But, I do believe what Psycho said. God set it all into motion.

Here's a question though. Sorry if I'm over looking something stupid, just keep in mind that my brain isn't working.

If it all evolved just as you said, Syl, then why are humans the only creatures that are sentient? I know there are intelligent animals, such as dolphins. Why have none of them adapted as humans have. Why are we soooo far ahead of anything else?

Everything else simply hasn't had the same mutations as we had. Humans got lucky and something along there happened into the point where we began to develop higher intelligence. It was just another lucky strike. There's a lot of luck involved in random genetic mutation. X3

How do you know we're the most evolved?

It is impossible, in my opinion, for earth to be the only planet to hold any form of intelligent life. Maybe other lifeforms out there are less intelligent, but they could be further evolved than us

eh. See, that's where I get tripped up. I don't believe in luck to that extent. That's a lot of coincidences your willing to believe in. I just can't see that it's all random. :p

Edit:
Okay, so there could be lives on other planets. I have no problem believeing that, although I don't believe there are any near us. But that still puts us as the only ones on the whole planet - out of billions of species - that evolved into sentient beings.